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[00:11.0-00:17.0] Welcome to Clearcast. It's a ministry of ClearNote Church in Indianapolis and Indiana. ClearNote
[00:17.0-00:24.0] we're located on 10th Street just a little bit east of Freightaway Road and we just wanted to take a
[00:24.0-00:31.0] minute and introduce ourselves and you can learn a little bit about us who we are, what we're doing.
[00:31.0-00:41.0] So, I'll start. I'm your host Tim Dookman. I have a background in theology and that I did half of a
[00:41.0-00:49.0] seminary degree at the Southern Baptist, the logical seminary in Louisville before eventually stopping that because the
[00:49.0-01:02.0] seminary had changed directions away from biblical faithfulness and so now I'm just a member here at ClearNote and I'll let my
[01:02.0-01:05.0] producer Martin tell us a little bit about himself.
[01:05.0-01:15.0] Alright, well, my name is Martin. I grew up in Central Indiana. I spent some time traveling and preaching and then I worked as a
[01:15.0-01:25.0] pastor in Chicago for six years. During that time I started looking at church membership and pastoral care and some of the
[01:25.0-01:34.0] issues of doctrine and theology and became convinced of reform to ecclesiology and in that process started looking for a church.
[01:34.0-01:42.0] As I moved back down in Indiana and started looking for a church and I found Evangelop Presbyterian and from there walked in the
[01:42.0-01:58.0] church. My wife and I joined the church last year about May, I think, and that's kind of my story. I've got four kids, eight, seven, five and getting ready to turn three.
[01:58.0-02:05.0] Actually, my oldest is getting ready to turn nine. So, a boy and my oldest boy and three girls and another one on the way.
[02:05.0-02:16.0] Yeah. And I am Dave for pastor Dave or a few other things that the people around here call me. I'm one of the founding pastors of ClearNote
[02:16.0-02:27.0] church. We started the church about thirteen years ago, just a little more than that. I planted the church with Joseph Bailey, who is now pastor of Christ
[02:27.0-02:44.0] church over in Cincinnati, Ohio, and I've been the senior pastor for about nine years now. I wanted to tell you guys a little bit about who I am and why we're doing this podcast.
[02:44.0-03:07.0] I grew up outside of Chicago in the suburbs and I grew up an only child with no father and outside of the church entirely. The first time I set foot in church was in my early twenties and that was through a long story behind how I ended up in church.
[03:07.0-03:33.0] The short version is I met my wife Vanessa who gave me a Bible and as I read it, I started to read it. I realized it didn't make any sense to me. And while I'd never been in the church, I'd also not been poisoned against the church or against religion. I really had grown up not knowing the difference between major world religions, what they believed, what their whole, even what their holy books were.
[03:33.0-03:55.0] And so I remember early on in reading the Bible, I didn't know the difference between the Jewish faith and the Christian faith or what their holy books were. I knew there was something called the Old Testament and the New Testament, but I didn't know who those books belong to or if there was overlap or what.
[03:55.0-04:18.0] So really I didn't know anything about the Bible and as I started to read Matthew and Mark, I realized that there's this man, Jesus, the Son of God, these were the accounts or biographies of his life and I read Matthew in a few days and then I read Mark and I looked at this copy of the New Testament that I had and I thought how many copies of the same story do these people need?
[04:18.0-04:38.0] And so that's how I started going to church, I thought this stuff doesn't make any sense to me, I don't understand. And so I started going to church, I guess that would have been back in 2004, 2004.
[04:38.0-04:53.0] And so I was a young man had never been exposed to the gospel or the truth or anything, I started out in a mega church, big church, 13 services a weekend that one of my co-workers went to.
[04:53.0-05:03.0] And I ended up going there for about a year or so, but shortly after that, or shortly before,
[05:03.0-05:14.0] I went there for about a year and then I ended up moving down to Bloomington, Indiana. There's a more of the story there we'll get to in a minute.
[05:14.0-05:31.0] But I remember that when I met my wife Vanessa that she was, she was different, something was different about her and something was attractive and something was beautiful about her that I couldn't put my finger on it and know what it was.
[05:31.0-05:37.0] She wasn't like the girls or the women that I was used to interacting with.
[05:37.0-05:45.0] And so, not long after we met, she'd given me a Bible, she said, if I give you a Bible, you read it and I said, yeah sure.
[05:45.0-05:56.0] And that's how I ended up getting a Bible, my first Bible and going to church was her giving me one. I often tell people that the way we ended up doing things is never advisable.
[05:56.0-06:16.0] So you're not in favor of missionary dating? No, I don't think missionary dating or evangelistic dating is a good thing. Paul Wandason, in verse Corinthians 15 not to be deceived that the bad company corrupts good morals and while by the world standards at that time I probably wasn't considered bad company, certainly by Christian standards, I was bad company.
[06:16.0-06:39.0] And so, however, you know, what can you say, I'm glad the way God worked it out in our lives, having been a pastor now for over a decade, my observation is that we are an anomaly that what happened for us is not what normally happens. It's almost never what happens.
[06:39.0-07:00.0] But there was some level of evangelistic dating and that's how I started going to church. And I really didn't have a clue. I would say I was just virgin soil if you will. I had a lot of questions, but I was not inoculated against the truth.
[07:00.0-07:10.0] My mom grew up Catholic, but I should say she grew up in a Catholic home. I don't know that she would ever say she was Catholic.
[07:10.0-07:20.0] But as soon as she was able, she got out of the house and shed all of those expectations or whatever.
[07:20.0-07:49.0] And then she had me when she was in 30, 31, and she had married a guy who was Palestinian and they had agreed that my mom would marry him so that he could become a citizen and be able to move here to the states and then they would divorce and he would be able to bring his wife and his children at the time.
[07:49.0-07:59.0] The whole plan was just for him to be able to immigrate to the US from Israel. And then my mom got pregnant and that was a monkey wrench. My dad did not want another child. Never pressured my mom to have an abortion as far as I know. He was a Muslim and yet within the
[07:59.0-08:28.0] a few months of me being born once he found out that I was a boy, not a girl. Somehow he communicated to my mom that he was going to take me.
[08:28.0-08:55.0] And go back to Israel with me. And so my mom is when he and my mom split. And basically he ended up going back to Israel remarrying his former wife and having six more children. So I am an only child but I have ten half siblings on my dad's side. I am actually one of my mom's side as well. But I have only ever met the two boys, my father's other two sons. I have never met any of the other.
[08:55.0-09:15.0] Half siblings in person. My mom never remarried. And so I grew up in a house where my mom worked two full-time jobs basically until I could contribute financially around 14. I had a paper out earlier than that. But when I turned to 14, you could get a summer job and stuff.
[09:15.0-09:44.0] I think you would be fair to say we grew up poor. And spent a lot of time alone with my mom working two jobs whenever she was home, she was sleeping. And so really I was raised by, I thought the internet wasn't really a thing then. I sort of raised by the TV, by pop culture, by rap music, by coaches. I was played sports through high school.
[09:44.0-09:47.0] And so I think in a lot of ways I was just very normal.
[09:47.0-09:52.0] Did you have any exposures to the gospel when you were in high school?
[09:52.0-10:08.0] I mean I knew a few kids whose names were Christian. But as far as anybody commented me and saying, tell them me the gospel no. But in high school I was, I mean it's sad to say, but there are people that Christians say, yeah I'm not going to go talk to that guy and I certainly would have been in that camp.
[10:08.0-10:17.0] Like I was big, I was pushy, I was aggressive. Well some things never changed. Come on, come on.
[10:17.0-10:25.0] But I would not have been the kind of guy. I wouldn't have thought, I wouldn't have said that I was necessarily mean to Christians or wasn't a hospital to write anything about them.
[10:25.0-10:37.0] But I can see how I would have been intimidating even then to kids, my age. And so no, I mean I never had never been in a church.
[10:37.0-10:42.0] I think my mom dropped me off at a VBS one time because one of her friends was taking her kids there for like free day care.
[10:42.0-10:50.0] So I might have gone to a VBS when I was a little kid for a few days, but I don't remember anything at all about that.
[10:50.0-10:59.0] But yeah I got out of high school. I graduated high school. I thought I might go to college, I decided not to. I got a job as a tree trimmer.
[10:59.0-11:06.0] And supposed to be a summer job, it turned into a job. I worked there for five years until I moved away from Chicago land.
[11:06.0-11:12.0] I was toward the end of that about a year before I moved that I became a Christian. I had met Vanessa.
[11:12.0-11:21.0] In those intervening years I spent my life. My life was marked by working a ton. I probably worked 55, 60 hours a week.
[11:21.0-11:30.0] I'd go to the gym two or three hours a day and I developed quite a pool playing/gambling habit.
[11:30.0-11:40.0] And so that was what I spent my time doing. I was working out and gambling, playing pool. I actually met my wife at the pool hall.
[11:40.0-11:50.0] And so there's a fun story there about how we met. But toward the end of that, us meeting she gave me the Bible.
[11:50.0-11:55.0] And I read it and started going to church and it was really strange. I'd never met people like that before.
[11:55.0-12:01.0] They were just different. It was really refreshing. It was something attractive about it.
[12:01.0-12:06.0] I mean we can all talk about churches and what's good and what's bad and what's...
[12:06.0-12:14.0] We should be striving for. But there really was as a whole a different place than I'd ever been around.
[12:14.0-12:22.0] And that was attractive to me. It was something that I was clear there were some people had something I didn't have.
[12:22.0-12:26.0] Anyway.
[12:26.0-12:34.0] When I met my wife she was finishing up her undergraduate degree out in Southern California at Biola University.
[12:34.0-12:47.0] And then she was applying for grad school. She applied to a couple of different schools. She ended up agreeing to Indiana University to study music, to get her masters in music education.
[12:47.0-12:54.0] And so that made her a lot closer to me being in Chicago and when she was in California it was quite a drive.
[12:54.0-13:03.0] But when she was in Bloomington, Indiana then she was closer. And so I would go down and visit her once or twice a month.
[13:03.0-13:13.0] That first semester she was in school. I'd just become a Christian and one of the things that was really shocking was I was going to this megaturge up in Chicago.
[13:13.0-13:19.0] And then I'd go to this little church that I still little it was 200 and some people but little by comparison.
[13:19.0-13:24.0] I'd go to this church down in Bloomington and I'm like this was so different.
[13:24.0-13:32.0] These people are not the same kind of people. The people are still sweet. The people are still friendly but these people are involved in each other's lives.
[13:32.0-13:40.0] They love the Word of God. The preaching was completely different. Everything was just like weird.
[13:40.0-13:41.0] And it was like...
[13:41.0-13:43.0] How was the preaching different?
[13:43.0-13:54.0] It was... I remember when I went to the megaturge. I remember thinking I wrote a letter one time and I wrote that every time I go there I always feel so good when I leave.
[13:54.0-14:00.0] Like I always felt so affirmed. It seemed like it was almost the point. It was that I was supposed to leave feeling affirmed.
[14:00.0-14:09.0] And I was never confronted with my own sins. Not even obliquely. I would say maybe I was just hard-hearted or blind and didn't feel it yet.
[14:09.0-14:17.0] I don't want to place all the blame on them but I never felt like anyone put a hurdle for me to get over after process.
[14:17.0-14:22.0] I just came away feeling affirmed. Whether I was a Christian or not just in the matter.
[14:22.0-14:29.0] Whereas when I was in Bloomington I was confronted with what sin was really for the first time.
[14:29.0-14:36.0] And that I was a sinner. And that that was actually... it was a category that I didn't ever had in my life.
[14:36.0-14:40.0] Like you grew up in the world. It's like well everyone's good people and they have good intentions.
[14:40.0-14:45.0] Sometimes they do really bad or foolish things. We're not sure why. Maybe it's because they have a lack of education.
[14:45.0-14:47.0] Seems to be a pretty good...
[14:47.0-14:53.0] Or a mental illness or mental illness. And obviously education and mental illness have...
[14:53.0-14:58.0] They belong somewhere in the conversation. But not everywhere all the time.
[14:58.0-15:03.0] And so I got this new category of like you're actually a... you're not a good person.
[15:03.0-15:07.0] There's an explanation for why you do these bad things that you know are bad.
[15:07.0-15:10.0] And that don't make you happy and you recognize they don't make you happy.
[15:10.0-15:16.0] But you still seem to... you can't get away from them. And here's why.
[15:16.0-15:21.0] You know the scripture says that we're slaves to sin. We're sold into sin, bonded into sin.
[15:21.0-15:24.0] And I'm like yeah that makes more sense than all this other stuff.
[15:24.0-15:32.0] Like... and so that was... it's weird. I want what it was was it was refreshing.
[15:32.0-15:39.0] It was like oh finally people who are honest. People who like tell me about myself and about my own weaknesses.
[15:39.0-15:43.0] And it's something that resonates with me. It's not what I hope is true about me.
[15:43.0-15:53.0] And that there's hope for people who recognize that. That was probably the biggest difference.
[15:53.0-15:59.0] You know when I showed up I remember the pastor of that church just not having a clue what to do with me.
[15:59.0-16:07.0] Because here's this young lady who plays the viola, who's petite, who's quiet, who's very sweet.
[16:07.0-16:14.0] And she's brought in this man who is 6-2 who's at the time was coming out of bodybuilding.
[16:14.0-16:22.0] Who had bleached hair. Who had a bunch of earrings, seven earrings, had a tongue ring, has tattoos.
[16:22.0-16:27.0] And they're sitting together at the front of the church and he I remember him telling me later.
[16:27.0-16:33.0] He's just like I didn't know what in the world to make out of you. You sat there with your arms crossed with a poker face.
[16:33.0-16:36.0] Absolutely no expression. This is him describing me.
[16:36.0-16:45.0] And it's like and there's this sweet girl. And there's this what? I don't know what to call him. A man, a boy, something.
[16:45.0-16:51.0] With all these muscles and tattoos and piercings and all this stuff. But he keeps coming.
[16:51.0-17:03.0] And really, I mean that was his perception. My perception was I was just like a dry sponge just soaking up every bit of the water that was being offered.
[17:03.0-17:11.0] And so that was really meaningful in my life. I became a Christian before I moved to Bloomington.
[17:11.0-17:18.0] But I talked to so many people about their Christian experience in their life.
[17:18.0-17:32.0] And it's like they spent so much of their growing up years, even if they grew up in the church with bad teaching, without being confronted about their sins, without being really even taught the Bible, or to believe the Bible.
[17:32.0-17:50.0] And I never had any of that. I mean within a few months of coming to faith, I was in a church that loved the Word of God, that honored the Word of God, that taught the whole council of God and wasn't afraid to confront you with your own sins personally.
[17:50.0-18:01.0] And that can be really scary. And for a lot of, a lot of times it's a, it ends up being offensive to the people. But not to everybody. And it wasn't to me.
[18:01.0-18:11.0] And so I remember one time when I still lived in Chicago, I was down visiting. And I wanted to marry Vanessa. Now I'd never seen a marriage.
[18:11.0-18:19.0] And I was a brand new Christian. I have no idea. So I don't even know what marriage is. I've not even seen a bad one. You know, it's my mom never remarried.
[18:19.0-18:27.0] But I'm like, I think I'm married this girl. And, but I don't have a clue what that means. And so we went and met with the pastor in his wife.
[18:27.0-18:40.0] And one of the things he said to me that was most helpful to me, I mean, everyone was crying. Everyone was crying. A ton, except for him. His wife was crying. I was crying. My Vanessa was crying. It was just a very painful conversation.
[18:40.0-18:55.0] But one of the things he said to me was, if she was my daughter, I would not let you near her. Whether you're a Christian or not. Just based on your history of, of, of, of women.
[18:55.0-19:07.0] I would not let you near her. Because you just have, in your wake, it's just a, a long line of, of destruction where you've taken advantage of and harmed other people for your own, your own benefit.
[19:07.0-19:21.0] And that was, I mean, obviously that hurt. Obviously that was sad. We went, we went into the counseling meeting like asking me asking like, what do we need to do to move towards marriage? And we came out of the meeting being told, you guys need to break up.
[19:21.0-19:34.0] Like this relationship is a mess. And they were right. And I still lived in Chicago. So I've got to get back in my car and drive back up to Chicago. And we ended up breaking up.
[19:34.0-19:45.0] I don't remember if it was the next day or a few days. I do remember it was Valentine's Day. Call, call Vanessa on Valentine's Day. So we're going to talk in a few days. I called her on Valentine's Day. And we broke up.
[19:45.0-20:07.0] And it wasn't like we're going to break up and be friends. This was before the social media. I mean, this was when everyone thought AOL was the thing. You know, we're old to him. All the 41. And we just, when we hung up that phone call, it was both of our understanding, though, it was very painful that we would never speak again. Wow.
[20:07.0-20:23.2] And then and and it's like, she had some of my stuff and I had stuff from her. And it's like, what are you doing? You're like, I guess I just don't have that stuff anymore. And, but then there's this question. I had also agreed before we'd broken up to go on a trip with a man down in Bloomington, Bob
[20:23.2-20:43.2] Okay, I have a little bit too since gone to be with the Lord. I had, I would stay at this house when I'd come down to visit her and I'd agreed to go on a spring break trip with him to Florida. I'm Vanessa was supposed to come with with me and we were supposed to go with another couple with Bob. Well, obviously, Vanessa didn't come on the trip. The question was, am I still going to go? So I, I drive down from Chicago, go on this trip with with Bob.
[20:43.2-21:00.2] And on that and everyone on everyone knew that this was sort of like a feel it out to see if I'd want to move in with him to move down to Bloomington. And during that trip, I agreed to move to Bloomington. So here I am. I'm just, I'm in the, I'm just very raw from this breakup. It's like two weeks old.
[21:00.2-21:12.2] And I'm back down in Bloomington, then going to Florida with this man and deciding to move to Bloomington where Vanessa has had at least we had the benefit of distance to like help us heal.
[21:12.2-21:40.2] Yeah. And now I'm facing like, am I going to move to Bloomington? And I agreed to move to Bloomington. And when people ask me now, like, why do you move to Bloomington? And I say, it wasn't for Vanessa, not primarily. I mean, obviously, I, you know, she's my wife now, but at that time, it was clear to me that I had to let go of that relationship. And really the reason I wanted to move to Bloomington was because it was the first time I'd ever had anybody care enough about me to tell me the truth.
[21:40.2-22:06.2] And it's been, you know, I've been a pastor now for 13 years, a Christian for, for longer. And the stories I hear of, of how people's, how their pastors refuse to do that, or are scared to do that or don't know how to do that is really, it's unsettling because I look at my own life and, you know, we could be good reform folk and speak with perfect approved language.
[22:06.2-22:17.2] But the way I feel is that if, if, if I hadn't had someone be that honest with me, I don't think I would have become a Christian. If I'd stayed in that mega church, I don't think my life ever would have changed.
[22:17.2-22:24.2] Yeah. Wow. Because nobody had anything to say to me about going into downtown Chicago into Wrigleyville and partying on the weekends.
[22:24.2-22:50.2] Like no one cared if you lived with your girlfriend, no one cared if you were fornicating, no one cared about anything. They didn't, I remember being in a small group and no one cared that like, there was a singles group and basically what it meant was all of the, it was just a big dating pool. So it's a cesspool. It was like we dated and we broke up, but we weren't pure while we dated and now we're still in this group and it's awkward and we're dating someone else and, and nobody had anything to say about it.
[22:50.2-23:06.2] And it certainly wasn't calling me to the truth and so. But that experience in Bloomington did change your life. You invented a cemetery and now you have how many kids? Yeah. So yeah, Vanessa and I, yeah, we, I did, so I did move to Bloomington.
[23:06.2-23:19.2] We, we were broken up for about seven months. We got back together dated for about eight weeks and then we're engaged for six months got married and got married back in 2006.
[23:19.2-23:48.2] We're, we've been married a little over 17 years. We've got 10 kids and then 11th on the way. I almost said we've got 11. We don't have 11 yet. I was thinking, I was thinking to add 11 for a second. No, unless I'm really miscounting. We have 10 kids and, and a baby coming in January of next year. So we're excited about that. So yeah, life is really different. I mean, I grew up an only child outside of a Christian home. You know, with no exposure to that now.
[23:48.2-24:07.2] I'm married. I've got 11 kids. I'm a pastor. So it's been this really, you know, I don't know what I want to say. It was all the Paul, but yeah, these type of it was a dramatic change. My life is Vanessa's I was so I often tell people Vanessa's the only person who ever knew me before I was a Christian that I'm really still in meaningful contact with today.
[24:07.2-24:18.1] She's the only guy who knew me before Christ and wow that I'm still involved with or have close relationships with. I may still have some friends, but most guys are loners and I didn't have a whole lot of close friends.
[24:18.1-24:25.1] You know, the guys at the pool hall and I somehow didn't seem to, you know, build a real strong bond. Right.
[24:25.1-24:37.1] But now I've got a family and a, you know, a wife and children family, a church family, mothers and fathers in the faith, all the things that I lacked growing up. And that's the kindest of God to me.
[24:37.1-24:47.1] And so I remember when I became a Christian and the transformation in my life, I thought I want to tell other people about this. Like if I can save them some trouble, I've gone through a lot of trouble.
[24:47.1-24:52.1] Like this doesn't tell all the, you know, these are the highlights, not the low lights of my life.
[24:52.1-24:53.1] Yeah.
[24:53.1-25:04.1] So in a way, so in a way, this podcast is about trying to talk to the least maybe some of the people that you were at 21 years old.
[25:04.1-25:09.1] We tied all the first season things I wish somebody had told me when I was in my 20s. Yeah.
[25:09.1-25:14.1] Right. Yeah. So maybe we'll cover some of the stuff and dig into some of the things you talked about. Yeah.
[25:14.1-25:20.1] And so that's that's Pastor Dave. It's Tim. Yeah. Yeah. That's my me. That's our story. Yeah.
[25:20.1-25:27.1] I realized I forgot to include this, but I do also have four kids in one of the ways. So, yeah.
[25:27.1-25:36.1] So right now all of our wives are expecting. Right. When is, when is a character do? Yeah. So she's due to the beginning of February. Okay. Yeah.
[25:36.1-25:43.1] We're right at the end of January. So we're okay. We're November and the baby will probably come early. So I'm, I'm, I'm, we're in the lead right now.
[25:43.1-25:46.1] We're in the lead right now. There you go. Yeah. Yeah.
[25:46.1-25:48.1] Martin will be learning for a few months now.
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