I am going to cover something here that we've had numerous questions come in on.
I am going to go as quickly as I can. Hopefully I don't steal too much of Pastor Igor's time,
but I got to cover it thoroughly enough we understand it because it's starting to cause
some confusion. I don't want any confusion. We just want good things happening.
So if you get questions, please don't sit on them and think them. I wish Pastor would
answer this part of it, this part, because it will start pulling on me. And then Igor,
for sure, won't speak. So just write them down and get them to me. We can do this again.
I am going to try to stick with my notes so I can get through this in an orderly fashion.
But we are going to talk a bit about para-church ministries. And we have had questions come
in several times. It has to do with the difference of how Jim operates his ministry,
which he is a para-church ministry, and how Word of Life and TBO operate and conduct
our services and ministries. And we have a unique situation here because we have a para-church
ministry who the person doing the ministry doesn't just come to the church, but we open
the church for them to do their ministry in the church. Thank God, Kerry says. She was
a recipient of that. So with that unique situation, you have something that is actually
kind of special as congregants. You get to look in and see how God does things differently
through different people. And I want to, you know, as I go through this and explain
some things, I want something very clear right from the beginning. Thank God, Jim
is here. Thank God for his ministry. We are blessed to have him here. And I am
not saying he is doing anything wrong or we're doing anything wrong. What I'm going to try
to show you is God operates differently, not only through different people, but specifically
through para-church ministries versus churches. So you get the option of being able to
actually watch this in action and it's great. But if you don't understand God does
things differently, it can sometimes cause questions and even confusion on what is going
on. So let's hit it briefly. Jim is a para-church ministry. New Life Ministries is the name
of his ministry. He's a para-church ministry. God brought him here. He's part of our
congregation now, but yet he is still running his own ministry. He's not on staff here.
He's running his own ministry and doing his own thing. Para-church ministries are
typically special emphasis ministries. They have a specific emphasis that God has them
dwelling on, and it's a specific focus for the body, for certain people, whatever. For
example, I'll give you four para-church ministries here that you're aware of, if you've come
here any length of time you're aware of. Tom Scorrella. What do you think about
Tom Scorrella when you think he's a para-church ministry? What's his emphasis?
Healing miracles for evangelism. That's Tom Scorrella. He'll lay hands on anybody,
any place, any time, watch God do a miracle right there and cub foods, and then get
him saved. That's him. That's how he operates. Bruce Fanata. Supernatural healing miracles.
And when he's done talking, you don't misunderstand what he had to say.
He has a very blunt message. That's what God made him to be, and that's cool.
We've had this man here. He's set up in Princeton. Now he's working over there,
but we've had him here for an open heaven meeting and so forth. Doug Stanton.
You know where his uniqueness lies? He's a para-church ministry. He doesn't claim to be a church.
He's a para-church ministry. But there's something very strategic God uses him in,
and it starts when he starts praying for people. That's where it just goes a whole different
direction than most people go. It's just how God uses him. So I'll give one other one that
we see a lot, but we might not view him as a para-church ministry, but they are,
which is Farmer Tom and Janet. When they come and take care of the children's ministry at open
heavens times. What is unique about... What comes to your mind immediately other than,
well, their children's ministers? Yeah, but what else? Pardon me? Compassion? What else?
Joy? You know what I like teasing with?
Mr. and Mrs. Rogers. You know, it used to be just Mr. Rogers on TV.
Mr. and Mrs. Rogers have just shown up because they don't do anything that spectacular,
but they can keep the kids engaged for hours.
You know, when our children were small, we were doing daycare. We'd always line them up in front of
the couch for Mr. Rogers' show. And it just always made me go, I don't get this till I finally
realize this is a gift. This isn't anointing because you've got these two, three, four,
five-year-olds watching Mr. Rogers take his sweater off, hang it on the coat rack,
sit down, take these shoes off, and put his tennis shoes on, and they're like,
it's amazing. And it's like, how can he hold their attention doing that every day?
Same thing. You would think after two weeks, they'd go, he's going to take his tennis off,
and he's going to hang his, no, they're sitting there like, did you see that?
That's amazing. That's an anointing.
Farmer Tom and Janet have that, especially when they pull out Benny.
It's good, but that's perichurch ministries. They have their emphasis. They're designed
and tailored by God to fit a certain need in the church. Churches are not perichurch
ministries. A church's focus cannot be on a specific aspect of ministry,
a certain type of ministry. A church is called to grow the whole person, the whole unit,
not just a aspect or a focus of who they are. So perichurches, by nature of their call,
emphasize a certain aspect. And it's awesome. It's not a bad thing. It's a God thing
if it's understood. A church isn't allowed to just focus on an aspect. We have to cover all the bases
or we get out of balance, and then that causes different problems. So we have to have the
five-fold in operation as much as possible. We need to deal with every aspect of your life,
even the ones you don't want to talk about. We have to bring them up sooner or later.
Perichurch ministries, they don't have to do that. They can just stick with what God told
them to do, and the people who want that just come. We get people to come and then God says,
deal with this, and we're going, oh, God, we're going to lose some over this topic.
I remember I was talking to one minister, he was speaking, and he said they were on the
good solid givers yet, so they didn't have the money to keep up with the demand,
and they were renting a school, and they were trying to rent as much as they could,
and there was problems. But more and more people kept coming, and the pastor said,
so I went to God and said, God, what do I do? I don't know how to handle this.
So Jesus told him, he gave him a John 6 moment. He said, just take two Sundays to speak on tithing.
You'll fix the problem. So he did. He said, I thought, well, now everybody's going to give.
I'm going to speak on tithing. Now we're going to have money. He said, half of them left.
He said, fix the problem. That's what happened to Jesus in John 6. He had these
throngs following him, and he finally said, well, let's clean up this a little bit.
And a whole bunch of them left to the point he asked his disciples, you guys leaving too.
Back to the subject. See, that's what blows time. I got to stay on task here.
Jim's emphasis. When you think of Jim, what do you think of?
The thing that comes to me is he wants to teach people how to move in the spirit,
equip them to do so, and activate them. Get them doing it. So teach on it, equip,
activate them, get them going, which is awesome. And it's good, and it's needed,
and the supernatural follows that. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
That's his ministry, if you want to put it in a nutshell, from my perspective.
It's awesome, but as a church, it's what we have to minister on is way bigger than that.
The gospel is way bigger than that. Does that mean he's wrong? No, that's who he is.
That's what God asked him to do. He's doing exactly what he should be doing. It's his call.
Train, equip, activate, get people moving in the spirit, get the supernatural following,
signs, wonders, healings, et cetera. And it's good. It's what it should be. You say,
well, why don't we do that every Sunday? Because we're not a pair of church ministry.
We're a church. And we have to cover all the bases, not just one or two.
So you have to spread out and cover it all to stay balanced. But like, for instance,
at Jim's meetings, like even the Holy Spirit night, it's great because everyone knows
what they're there for. It's a safe place to learn. It's a safe place to grow.
It's not a big evangelism thrust. You don't have half the crowd as unbelievers who came
and heard that we're going to have a Holy Spirit night, so they want to see what that's about.
That's not what the design is. It's not what that ministry is. But you get a group of people
together who are wanting more movement of God in their life. So it's safe. You know what
it's all about. And it's a setting that's conducive to learning. It's a setting that's
conducive to stepping out and trying some things as he teaches and activates and says,
now you do it. Discovering your own gifts, challenging you, learning how to move in
your gifts. It's all very good stuff. But the thing you have to realize is it's an
emphasized ministry of His. And sometimes one of the questions that's come in is,
well why don't we always do this in the church service? Because some mornings
God doesn't want that to happen in the church service. There's other stuff that needs to
be dealt with. We're not a specialized ministry. We're trying to grow the whole thing.
And if you just specialize in on something, then you get out of balance. So three main
questions came in. Let me hit them as quick as I can. Number one, Jim will allow most anyone
to bring a word or prophecy, speak out in public to a person or to a person. Speak out to the
group or to a person. In our services, like at Word of Life and TVO, we do not allow that.
Why? Which is a very valid question. Number two, Jim will allow numerous prophetic words
to take place in a meeting. In our services, we don't allow that. Why? And number three,
Jim will allow anyone to lay hands on anybody and pray for them. In church services,
we don't do that. Why? Well, I already gave you the simple answer to those three questions.
Is his emphasis and focus is to teach, equip and activate people in their gifts
and move in the Holy Spirit. You know coming into his setting, he expects you at some point to
step up and start doing this stuff because that's his goal, is to get everybody there doing this
stuff. When people know that's happening and it creates an expectation and it's good learning,
good practice. In my experience, those kind of settings, there's some leniency from God because
it's kind of like a classroom setting. And he has guidelines for church services and I'll explain
that here in a bit, but he tends to set those aside a little bit when you've got a group of hungry
people here saying, please show me how to do it and give me some room to try. God works with
that. And that's Jim's services. That's his class as many of the times. They happen different in a
training session. So let me go back to the first question. We'll hit them one at a time.
Jim will allow most anyone to bring a word or prophecy, speak out in public or to a person.
In our services, we do not allow that. Why? Another way to say it is I've had people
ask it this way. Why don't we have an open mic at Word of Life or TBO? Open mic means
anybody who wants to share anything, come here, here's the mic, go for it. Why don't we do that?
Well, there's, I want it, we're trying to protect three areas. Number one is the person
delivering the message. We're trying to actually protect you. Number two, the person or the
people receiving the message. And number three, the atmosphere, the anointing. So let's take
them apart. In a class or a service setting where you know it's expected, we're learning,
we're growing, we're testing our gifts, trying to figure out who we are, what we flow in.
When someone misses it or in other words they say, I think I've got something from God and
they say it and it's like, yeah, that wasn't from God. Probably even not scriptural.
Everybody in that group looks around and goes, oh, cool. I guess they missed it. We're all growing.
It's okay. It's safe. Let's just keep moving forward. Hopefully it's addressed. You know,
if they miss it, you got to bring it up. You can't let, behold the Lord has said,
the sky is not blue, it's green. Amen, brother. Amen, we're with you. I mean,
you got to correct that. Even in a class setting, you got to correct it and say,
well, maybe you missed that one. Rethink that. But it's much easier to do in those settings. In
a service setting where there can be numerous different kinds of people all the way from
people who don't know Jesus at all yet. They haven't made him their savior.
To people who've just gotten in and they're baby Christians or they're still young, they're
still growing. They're dealing with things they've been taught from other sources and traditions
they picked up. And they're not expecting someone to share something saying this is God
and it's not God. They're going, hey, somebody got up and said, God speaking, we better listen.
And if you totally miss it, now we have a problem. That happens too often. You're
going to destroy the credibility of the person saying it if it continues to happen.
So no matter what gift God is working in you and growing in you, if you keep missing it in front
of the group too often, they're going to go, yeah, okay. And just kind of ignore you
even though there could be a real gem in the making. It's just being made in the wrong
place. We always answer for what we speak. It represents God. And the difficult part is,
according to 1 Corinthians 14, 29, and 1 Corinthians 14 is dealing with church service
settings. When you're in a church service setting, everything has to be judged.
And when people get up and say things that are not God, somebody has to in the leadership
has to get up and correct it. It can be embarrassing. It can be frustrating.
It's so we do it to protect all the people involved, especially the one speaking.
Secondly, for the person hearing the message. So if you're at a setting where, yeah,
we're learning, we're growing, we're taking turns praying for each other. We're
trying to hear God's voice and so forth. And somebody comes up with something that's just
like, what in the world? Everybody goes, well, that's all right, we're growing, we get it.
Very little damage is done to the receiver or the listener. In a service where the group is
mixed and the mindset is not, we're here to practice, we're here to learn. A huge amount
of damage can be done by giving information that we claim is God, but is not God. We can
really damage the hearer. This isn't a game. This isn't practice. This isn't fun.
You're speaking for God. If they receive it as such and there was nothing God in what you just
said, if that's not corrected immediately, they can leave with huge damage coming out of that.
So that's why in those church settings it has to always be judged. And make sure what's coming
out is accurate, because when we miss it, it can cause confusion in them.
I know people who've repelled back from God saying, yeah, I had people prophesy over me, what a joke.
Well, see, it was out of order. Something was being done wrong, because when God speaks, it's
never a joke. Usually he just lays you bare, and it's like, oh, I'm not sure I want to hear
that. It's not, it was a joke. They said all kinds of stuff made no sense to me whatsoever.
See, that was because something was allowed to happen out of order in a setting where it actually
damaged the recipient. And then they began criticizing the supernatural, and sometimes
they develop a skepticism all their life towards these things, which takes us back
to the previous point. That's why in the church setting, Paul says, you got to judge this
stuff. You can't just let her fly. And whatever happens, happens. It's got to be called
to account. We've got to be accurate, because we're dealing with a mixed group.
Second question. Jim allows numerous prophetic words to take place in a meeting. In our
services, we do not. Here's what I mean by prophetic words, because people slice the pie
a little differently sometimes. I'm referring to anything that is being said to the public
like it's a message from the Lord. I don't care if it's a word of knowledge,
word of wisdom, whatever it is. Well, this is what I feel the Lord is telling me,
and we're delivering it not to a specific person. We're delivering it to the group.
That is a prophetic utterance in my mind. First Corinthians 14-3, it's for edification or
strengthening. The NIV says, exhortation or encouragement. The NIV says, and for comfort.
So now, again, in a trading setting where everyone knows we're there for a purpose
to grow, to learn how to do this, I believe God gives some latitude and we as people need to give
latitude so that we can step in safely and give it some tries. And if we're wrong, somebody says,
yeah, that probably wasn't right, but that's okay. Keep working on it. It flows differently,
does very little damage. In a service where we're in a mixed group, we're not here to
practice. When that setting turns into a practice place, or hey, I've got something I think is from
God, and it's spoken to the group, that becomes a prophetic voice for God.
Scripturally, 1 Corinthians 14 says you can have two or three messages and tongues and
interpretations, and or you can have two or three prophecies. So hold it there.
We don't need 15 words from God in a certain service. In fact, if you're going to get really strict on
it, 12 of them weren't God, or they weren't for the group, or they were for a person that never
got delivered to, or once you... here's the way I look at it. Once you cross that line and you
say it's okay, how do you ever pull it back in? God put the line there for a reason.
And over the course of the summer, Mary and I, we were at a church where
they had more of an open mic concept, and I'll bet you they had seven or eight
public words in the service. And I'm going, nope, not scriptural. Why are we doing this?
Well, in 1431, 1 Corinthians 1431, it says all can prophesy. Everybody can prophesy.
They can. Everybody can prophesy. We're just not all going to do it in the same service.
But everybody can do it. That's not the point of whether everybody can or not.
The point is, we've got all these different people saying, God is saying this,
and God is saying that, and I believe God showed me this, and God showed me that.
And Paul, by the Holy Spirit, very specifically limited the number on that.
So that's why in a church setting, we don't let that happen.
Now, when you're in a class training setting, I've seen it happen five, six, seven times,
and all of them were God. Because again, you've got a different group there. You've got a group
there who understands what we're doing. We're learning. We're growing. It's safe. We're all
saved. We all understand the gifts of the Spirit. That's why Jim always teaches
before he does these things to try to get everybody on the same page.
So when God starts training and working and dealing with people, it flows.
Everybody's going the same direction. In a church service, we don't know that's happening,
because you have visitors dropping in at any time, and they should be allowed to drop in
without leaving, going, wow, that was really weird. I'm just being honest.
And I'll tell you one other reason why in my mind it's not good to have,
why the Holy Spirit would have said that. Why would He limit them?
Because if it becomes too numerous, we tend to get nonchalant about it.
Technically speaking from Scripture, if someone is giving some form of prophetic message,
you are speaking for God. That is a big deal. If you're actually speaking for God,
if God is actually speaking to me through you, this is huge.
If you put it in context of who really is God, and now he's taking time to speak
through this person. Do you know how you know when it's become too nonchalant?
You can't remember next week what he said last week.
Oh, I had three prophecies over me last week. What were they? Oh, something about,
yeah, give me a minute. Give me a minute. That's not, that's bad.
We have diminished something that's very holy down to Kim and I are just talking. Well,
what did she say? Well, I don't know. Give me a minute. It was two days ago,
she said it. I mean, that's a long time. I got to think about this little bit.
Once God is in that category, we are mishandling the gifts.
When he speaks, this should be remembered, written down, this should be life changing.
I mean, show me one place in Scripture where God spoke that wasn't life changing.
There is none. Every time he spoke to the Israelites, every time he spoke to the church,
every time it's like, well, God is speaking, wake up, this is big.
But yet in our charismatic circles, it's like, oh, we just hand out prophecies like candy.
And it's like, I think 98% of them aren't God.
So last question. Jim will allow anyone to lay hands on and pray for them we don't.
Again, remember his call, his gifting. He's a paratroop ministry with a specific emphasis.
He works in nurturing like a teacher to a student. So it's kind of hard to say,
here, let me show you how to do math, but I never want you doing math.
At some point, you can show them two and two is four and then say, now you do it.
If you want them to learn math, okay? So you've got to keep that in mind. So if he's saying,
hey, the scripture says this, we can lay on hands and people can be healed, miracles can
take place, all kinds of stuff can happen, but don't ever do it. Well, he's never going to
activate you. He's never going to equip you. He's never going to help you.
So in that setting, everybody again, it's likely a smaller group. It's people who know each other,
know what they're there for. It's much safer because laying on a hand is a very, very powerful
thing. It releases a transfer of anointing. Godly anointing is what's supposed to be transferred.
There's a spiritual energy or power that can transfer when you lay on hands. But guess
what? There's also demons that can transfer when you lay on hands. It can work both ways.
So when I don't know the person and we're in a bigger group and there's
people here that I don't know and they want to come and pray for somebody, I won't let them do it.
I don't know who they are. They could be a witch, they could be a warlock,
they could be a satan worshiper, just waiting for an opportunity to go load somebody up with
some demons. I don't know who they are, waiting for an opportunity to put a curse on somebody.
It's like, no, I got to know you a little better because I actually believe when you
lay on hands there will be a supernatural transfer of power. I believe that with all my heart.
So if I believe that, then we have to handle it that way.
If I know a person who is living in willful sin, we're all struggling and growing,
but I mean talking willful sin, I won't let them lay hands on. Because what's in you will jump.
I've seen it way too many times. Well pastor, I just feel that I want to lay hands on somebody for
healing. But you crawled out of bed with who knows who on the come to church this morning.
And it's like, yeah, probably not going to let you do that.
Oh, I'm not good enough has nothing to do with you being good enough or bad enough.
It has to do with I'm nervous what you brought with you that is going to jump to that person.
And it can go both ways. It can go from the person who's being prayed for to the prayer,
or most of the time it goes from the prayer to the person who's being prayed for.
But I remember one specific time I didn't have my guard up the way I should have.
It was a Sunday night service. I knew everybody there.
Usually Sunday nights a lot of visitors don't show up. So it's our people.
And we had a prayer line. I went down the prayer line.
Next morning I woke up with the strongest desire to commit adultery than I've ever had in my life.
It was just like, I got to go find somebody. This is going to be awesome.
And it's like, you know, I'm smart enough to know. What? Where is this coming from?
It took me all day. By evening the Lord said, such and such lady you laid hands on.
She's carrying this. And it jumped because you didn't have your guard up.
Kick it out. So I kicked it out. And within about five minutes it's like,
I can't believe I was actually thinking that way.
It was just a flop to a different way of thinking.
So you can't just take somebody who you know. And it's, we're all growing.
I'm not saying you have to be perfect. But there's people who are in flat out disobedience,
rebellion to God. They're doing it their way. And they're going to continue doing it their way.
You can't let them lay hands on somebody because that will transfer.
And instead of helping the person, you're actually going to load them up with stuff
they don't need. So I guard that. And also if someone doesn't come to the church regularly,
I don't know you well enough. I don't know what's going on in your life.
I don't have to sit down and talk with you and have lunch. I just need two minutes standing by you.
And I'll know where you're at. And if you don't come often enough,
all of a sudden you show up and you want to, well, I used to come to church here
three months ago, Pastor Verne. I was here. I want to pray for it. No, you're not
nothing's wrong with you. I don't know what you've been into.
And I consider laying on of hands a holy thing that will absolutely, absolutely produce supernatural
results because the spiritual power will transfer. I just want to make sure it's the right one.
So my job is to teach and encourage, make ways possible, grow and watch over and protect and
and keep an eye on the big thing. And in the smaller class type setting,
hopefully everybody knows each other. We know what's going on and it's much easier to manage.
So real briefly, the process here, we want the gifts to operate. Most Spirit-filled churches
don't let gifts operate in a service. Why? Because it gets out of control. It's weird.
We want them to operate, but we want you to filter through the people who are
going to answer for the service. Let me say it that way. And usually those people are in that front
row. It's either me, my wife, Pastor Igor, Pastor Tanya. Sometimes guest speakers are there with us.
We're going to answer for it. So if you feel God's giving you something, just come on over,
get our attention during present worship or what it could be during a message. Just walk on over
and whisper to Pastor Igor, hey, this is what I'm hearing. This is what I'm feeling. You
think this is God? And we feel good about it. We'll go with it. You say, well,
feel good about it. What does that mean? We already know the direction of the service coming in.
It's rare. Occasionally I'll get up and say, I have no idea where this is supposed to go.
That's rare. We already have heard and say, this is where it's supposed to go.
This is how it's supposed to get there. We know what God is trying to establish.
We're going to measure against that. We're going to measure against what you're
sharing. Is it scriptural? We're going to measure against, is it just for you or
is this for the congregation? You heard God. Absolutely. I don't think it's for the
congregation though, or I don't think it's for this time, or it might be just for you.
And that's all good. It's all growing. It's all learning. But we want the gifts to operate,
and that's how we're trying to screen it so it can happen. And yet it doesn't get funny.
Weird, whatever. I know I let it happen last Sunday. In fact, I asked for it to happen
last Sunday. I said, we're not done here yet. God's got some things. And I had a few
people come forward. I said, come to me and tell me what you got. Let's see what you got.
And that's all good. But on a normal Sunday, we prefer you go around and talk to the people
over there and screen it through them because, number one, on video, who you've got all kinds
of people watching the video, all of a sudden somebody comes up and stands here. It looks like
what? And then whoever's in charge comes and leans over and they're talking. You know what's
going to go through their mind? Couldn't they have found a better place to talk about where
they're going off for lunch or whatever they're talking about? It's going to look goofy because
they're not in the mindset we're in. And it's going to be a distraction to them.
And then the person in front is trying to follow the spirit and now they got a kind
of hopefully the band's still going because I've had it happen when it's just talking going on.
Somebody comes and now we're talking. And everybody's going like, okay. And for two minutes,
nothing's going on except you're listening real hard trying to hear. What are they saying?
What are they talking about? It's just a poor way of communication and it can be done better.
So clear it through the people who are available over there in that front roll.
And also I'm going to request, and we don't have much of this, thank God. I'm also going
to request just don't blurt out a prophecy or speaking in tongues interpretation. Don't just
blurt it out. If you've got something, come tell us. It'll witness with us. Now there's
times I'll say somebody's got something. Who is it? Well, then now you've got permission to go for
it. But just all of a sudden blurt it out. Again, it's we have no idea where you're
going with this. And it can literally take a whole service that was going this way
and turn it to go that way. And it wasn't God. So then when you try to turn it back,
you're always going to have those few people who can't feel it in their spirit that, yeah,
we shouldn't have went that way. We should have stayed this way. You'll always have those
few who say, oh, why didn't you do what they said? I thought it was a good idea.
Only buddy who's got any authority here appears to be you, huh?
And it's like, we don't need the confusion. We don't need the distraction.
There's just a better way to do it. And that's all we're trying to do.
But that's the reason most spirit filled churches don't allow the gifts of the spirit to flow.
So I just wanted to separate. Can you punch something out in half an hour? Okay.
Message number two is coming up. I just wanted to separate to help us understand,
because they're the same kind of questions keep coming in. And it's like, well, the
difference is basically perichurch ministry to church ministry and the focus, the emphasis.
If you will divide it out into that, it'll make perfect sense to you why Jim operates the way he
does, why we operate the way we do. And if you have more questions, shoot them in. We'll take