WEBVTT

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I am going to cover something here that we've had numerous questions come in on.

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I am going to go as quickly as I can. Hopefully I don't steal too much of Pastor Igor's time,

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but I got to cover it thoroughly enough we understand it because it's starting to cause

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some confusion. I don't want any confusion. We just want good things happening.

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So if you get questions, please don't sit on them and think them. I wish Pastor would

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answer this part of it, this part, because it will start pulling on me. And then Igor,

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for sure, won't speak. So just write them down and get them to me. We can do this again.

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I am going to try to stick with my notes so I can get through this in an orderly fashion.

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But we are going to talk a bit about para-church ministries. And we have had questions come

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in several times. It has to do with the difference of how Jim operates his ministry,

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which he is a para-church ministry, and how Word of Life and TBO operate and conduct

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our services and ministries. And we have a unique situation here because we have a para-church

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ministry who the person doing the ministry doesn't just come to the church, but we open

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the church for them to do their ministry in the church. Thank God, Kerry says. She was

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a recipient of that. So with that unique situation, you have something that is actually

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kind of special as congregants. You get to look in and see how God does things differently

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through different people. And I want to, you know, as I go through this and explain

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some things, I want something very clear right from the beginning. Thank God, Jim

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is here. Thank God for his ministry. We are blessed to have him here. And I am

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not saying he is doing anything wrong or we're doing anything wrong. What I'm going to try

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to show you is God operates differently, not only through different people, but specifically

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through para-church ministries versus churches. So you get the option of being able to

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actually watch this in action and it's great. But if you don't understand God does

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things differently, it can sometimes cause questions and even confusion on what is going

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on. So let's hit it briefly. Jim is a para-church ministry. New Life Ministries is the name

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of his ministry. He's a para-church ministry. God brought him here. He's part of our

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congregation now, but yet he is still running his own ministry. He's not on staff here.

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He's running his own ministry and doing his own thing. Para-church ministries are

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typically special emphasis ministries. They have a specific emphasis that God has them

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dwelling on, and it's a specific focus for the body, for certain people, whatever. For

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example, I'll give you four para-church ministries here that you're aware of, if you've come

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here any length of time you're aware of. Tom Scorrella. What do you think about

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Tom Scorrella when you think he's a para-church ministry? What's his emphasis?

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Healing miracles for evangelism. That's Tom Scorrella. He'll lay hands on anybody,

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any place, any time, watch God do a miracle right there and cub foods, and then get

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him saved. That's him. That's how he operates. Bruce Fanata. Supernatural healing miracles.

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And when he's done talking, you don't misunderstand what he had to say.

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He has a very blunt message. That's what God made him to be, and that's cool.

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We've had this man here. He's set up in Princeton. Now he's working over there,

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but we've had him here for an open heaven meeting and so forth. Doug Stanton.

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You know where his uniqueness lies? He's a para-church ministry. He doesn't claim to be a church.

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He's a para-church ministry. But there's something very strategic God uses him in,

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and it starts when he starts praying for people. That's where it just goes a whole different

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direction than most people go. It's just how God uses him. So I'll give one other one that

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we see a lot, but we might not view him as a para-church ministry, but they are,

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which is Farmer Tom and Janet. When they come and take care of the children's ministry at open

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heavens times. What is unique about... What comes to your mind immediately other than,

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well, their children's ministers? Yeah, but what else? Pardon me? Compassion? What else?

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Joy? You know what I like teasing with?

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Mr. and Mrs. Rogers. You know, it used to be just Mr. Rogers on TV.

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Mr. and Mrs. Rogers have just shown up because they don't do anything that spectacular,

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but they can keep the kids engaged for hours.

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You know, when our children were small, we were doing daycare. We'd always line them up in front of

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the couch for Mr. Rogers' show. And it just always made me go, I don't get this till I finally

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realize this is a gift. This isn't anointing because you've got these two, three, four,

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five-year-olds watching Mr. Rogers take his sweater off, hang it on the coat rack,

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sit down, take these shoes off, and put his tennis shoes on, and they're like,

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it's amazing. And it's like, how can he hold their attention doing that every day?

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Same thing. You would think after two weeks, they'd go, he's going to take his tennis off,

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and he's going to hang his, no, they're sitting there like, did you see that?

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That's amazing. That's an anointing.

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Farmer Tom and Janet have that, especially when they pull out Benny.

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It's good, but that's perichurch ministries. They have their emphasis. They're designed

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and tailored by God to fit a certain need in the church. Churches are not perichurch

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ministries. A church's focus cannot be on a specific aspect of ministry,

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a certain type of ministry. A church is called to grow the whole person, the whole unit,

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not just a aspect or a focus of who they are. So perichurches, by nature of their call,

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emphasize a certain aspect. And it's awesome. It's not a bad thing. It's a God thing

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if it's understood. A church isn't allowed to just focus on an aspect. We have to cover all the bases

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or we get out of balance, and then that causes different problems. So we have to have the

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five-fold in operation as much as possible. We need to deal with every aspect of your life,

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even the ones you don't want to talk about. We have to bring them up sooner or later.

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Perichurch ministries, they don't have to do that. They can just stick with what God told

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them to do, and the people who want that just come. We get people to come and then God says,

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deal with this, and we're going, oh, God, we're going to lose some over this topic.

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I remember I was talking to one minister, he was speaking, and he said they were on the

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good solid givers yet, so they didn't have the money to keep up with the demand,

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and they were renting a school, and they were trying to rent as much as they could,

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and there was problems. But more and more people kept coming, and the pastor said,

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so I went to God and said, God, what do I do? I don't know how to handle this.

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So Jesus told him, he gave him a John 6 moment. He said, just take two Sundays to speak on tithing.

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You'll fix the problem. So he did. He said, I thought, well, now everybody's going to give.

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I'm going to speak on tithing. Now we're going to have money. He said, half of them left.

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He said, fix the problem. That's what happened to Jesus in John 6. He had these

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throngs following him, and he finally said, well, let's clean up this a little bit.

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And a whole bunch of them left to the point he asked his disciples, you guys leaving too.

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Back to the subject. See, that's what blows time. I got to stay on task here.

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Jim's emphasis. When you think of Jim, what do you think of?

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The thing that comes to me is he wants to teach people how to move in the spirit,

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equip them to do so, and activate them. Get them doing it. So teach on it, equip,

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activate them, get them going, which is awesome. And it's good, and it's needed,

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and the supernatural follows that. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

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That's his ministry, if you want to put it in a nutshell, from my perspective.

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It's awesome, but as a church, it's what we have to minister on is way bigger than that.

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The gospel is way bigger than that. Does that mean he's wrong? No, that's who he is.

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That's what God asked him to do. He's doing exactly what he should be doing. It's his call.

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Train, equip, activate, get people moving in the spirit, get the supernatural following,

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signs, wonders, healings, et cetera. And it's good. It's what it should be. You say,

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well, why don't we do that every Sunday? Because we're not a pair of church ministry.

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We're a church. And we have to cover all the bases, not just one or two.

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So you have to spread out and cover it all to stay balanced. But like, for instance,

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at Jim's meetings, like even the Holy Spirit night, it's great because everyone knows

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what they're there for. It's a safe place to learn. It's a safe place to grow.

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It's not a big evangelism thrust. You don't have half the crowd as unbelievers who came

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and heard that we're going to have a Holy Spirit night, so they want to see what that's about.

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That's not what the design is. It's not what that ministry is. But you get a group of people

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together who are wanting more movement of God in their life. So it's safe. You know what

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it's all about. And it's a setting that's conducive to learning. It's a setting that's

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conducive to stepping out and trying some things as he teaches and activates and says,

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now you do it. Discovering your own gifts, challenging you, learning how to move in

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your gifts. It's all very good stuff. But the thing you have to realize is it's an

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emphasized ministry of His. And sometimes one of the questions that's come in is,

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well why don't we always do this in the church service? Because some mornings

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God doesn't want that to happen in the church service. There's other stuff that needs to

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be dealt with. We're not a specialized ministry. We're trying to grow the whole thing.

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And if you just specialize in on something, then you get out of balance. So three main

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questions came in. Let me hit them as quick as I can. Number one, Jim will allow most anyone

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to bring a word or prophecy, speak out in public to a person or to a person. Speak out to the

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group or to a person. In our services, like at Word of Life and TVO, we do not allow that.

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Why? Which is a very valid question. Number two, Jim will allow numerous prophetic words

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to take place in a meeting. In our services, we don't allow that. Why? And number three,

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Jim will allow anyone to lay hands on anybody and pray for them. In church services,

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we don't do that. Why? Well, I already gave you the simple answer to those three questions.

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Is his emphasis and focus is to teach, equip and activate people in their gifts

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and move in the Holy Spirit. You know coming into his setting, he expects you at some point to

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step up and start doing this stuff because that's his goal, is to get everybody there doing this

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stuff. When people know that's happening and it creates an expectation and it's good learning,

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good practice. In my experience, those kind of settings, there's some leniency from God because

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it's kind of like a classroom setting. And he has guidelines for church services and I'll explain

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that here in a bit, but he tends to set those aside a little bit when you've got a group of hungry

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people here saying, please show me how to do it and give me some room to try. God works with

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that. And that's Jim's services. That's his class as many of the times. They happen different in a

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training session. So let me go back to the first question. We'll hit them one at a time.

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Jim will allow most anyone to bring a word or prophecy, speak out in public or to a person.

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In our services, we do not allow that. Why? Another way to say it is I've had people

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ask it this way. Why don't we have an open mic at Word of Life or TBO? Open mic means

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anybody who wants to share anything, come here, here's the mic, go for it. Why don't we do that?

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Well, there's, I want it, we're trying to protect three areas. Number one is the person

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delivering the message. We're trying to actually protect you. Number two, the person or the

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people receiving the message. And number three, the atmosphere, the anointing. So let's take

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them apart. In a class or a service setting where you know it's expected, we're learning,

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we're growing, we're testing our gifts, trying to figure out who we are, what we flow in.

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When someone misses it or in other words they say, I think I've got something from God and

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they say it and it's like, yeah, that wasn't from God. Probably even not scriptural.

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Everybody in that group looks around and goes, oh, cool. I guess they missed it. We're all growing.

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It's okay. It's safe. Let's just keep moving forward. Hopefully it's addressed. You know,

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if they miss it, you got to bring it up. You can't let, behold the Lord has said,

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the sky is not blue, it's green. Amen, brother. Amen, we're with you. I mean,

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you got to correct that. Even in a class setting, you got to correct it and say,

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well, maybe you missed that one. Rethink that. But it's much easier to do in those settings. In

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a service setting where there can be numerous different kinds of people all the way from

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people who don't know Jesus at all yet. They haven't made him their savior.

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To people who've just gotten in and they're baby Christians or they're still young, they're

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still growing. They're dealing with things they've been taught from other sources and traditions

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they picked up. And they're not expecting someone to share something saying this is God

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and it's not God. They're going, hey, somebody got up and said, God speaking, we better listen.

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And if you totally miss it, now we have a problem. That happens too often. You're

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going to destroy the credibility of the person saying it if it continues to happen.

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So no matter what gift God is working in you and growing in you, if you keep missing it in front

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of the group too often, they're going to go, yeah, okay. And just kind of ignore you

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even though there could be a real gem in the making. It's just being made in the wrong

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place. We always answer for what we speak. It represents God. And the difficult part is,

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according to 1 Corinthians 14, 29, and 1 Corinthians 14 is dealing with church service

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settings. When you're in a church service setting, everything has to be judged.

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And when people get up and say things that are not God, somebody has to in the leadership

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has to get up and correct it. It can be embarrassing. It can be frustrating.

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It's so we do it to protect all the people involved, especially the one speaking.

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Secondly, for the person hearing the message. So if you're at a setting where, yeah,

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we're learning, we're growing, we're taking turns praying for each other. We're

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trying to hear God's voice and so forth. And somebody comes up with something that's just

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like, what in the world? Everybody goes, well, that's all right, we're growing, we get it.

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Very little damage is done to the receiver or the listener. In a service where the group is

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mixed and the mindset is not, we're here to practice, we're here to learn. A huge amount

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of damage can be done by giving information that we claim is God, but is not God. We can

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really damage the hearer. This isn't a game. This isn't practice. This isn't fun.

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You're speaking for God. If they receive it as such and there was nothing God in what you just

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said, if that's not corrected immediately, they can leave with huge damage coming out of that.

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So that's why in those church settings it has to always be judged. And make sure what's coming

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out is accurate, because when we miss it, it can cause confusion in them.

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I know people who've repelled back from God saying, yeah, I had people prophesy over me, what a joke.

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Well, see, it was out of order. Something was being done wrong, because when God speaks, it's

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never a joke. Usually he just lays you bare, and it's like, oh, I'm not sure I want to hear

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that. It's not, it was a joke. They said all kinds of stuff made no sense to me whatsoever.

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See, that was because something was allowed to happen out of order in a setting where it actually

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damaged the recipient. And then they began criticizing the supernatural, and sometimes

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they develop a skepticism all their life towards these things, which takes us back

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to the previous point. That's why in the church setting, Paul says, you got to judge this

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stuff. You can't just let her fly. And whatever happens, happens. It's got to be called

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to account. We've got to be accurate, because we're dealing with a mixed group.

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Second question. Jim allows numerous prophetic words to take place in a meeting. In our

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services, we do not. Here's what I mean by prophetic words, because people slice the pie

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a little differently sometimes. I'm referring to anything that is being said to the public

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like it's a message from the Lord. I don't care if it's a word of knowledge,

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word of wisdom, whatever it is. Well, this is what I feel the Lord is telling me,

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and we're delivering it not to a specific person. We're delivering it to the group.

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That is a prophetic utterance in my mind. First Corinthians 14-3, it's for edification or

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strengthening. The NIV says, exhortation or encouragement. The NIV says, and for comfort.

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So now, again, in a trading setting where everyone knows we're there for a purpose

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to grow, to learn how to do this, I believe God gives some latitude and we as people need to give

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latitude so that we can step in safely and give it some tries. And if we're wrong, somebody says,

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yeah, that probably wasn't right, but that's okay. Keep working on it. It flows differently,

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does very little damage. In a service where we're in a mixed group, we're not here to

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practice. When that setting turns into a practice place, or hey, I've got something I think is from

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God, and it's spoken to the group, that becomes a prophetic voice for God.

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Scripturally, 1 Corinthians 14 says you can have two or three messages and tongues and

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interpretations, and or you can have two or three prophecies. So hold it there.

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We don't need 15 words from God in a certain service. In fact, if you're going to get really strict on

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it, 12 of them weren't God, or they weren't for the group, or they were for a person that never

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got delivered to, or once you... here's the way I look at it. Once you cross that line and you

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say it's okay, how do you ever pull it back in? God put the line there for a reason.

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And over the course of the summer, Mary and I, we were at a church where

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they had more of an open mic concept, and I'll bet you they had seven or eight

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public words in the service. And I'm going, nope, not scriptural. Why are we doing this?

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Well, in 1431, 1 Corinthians 1431, it says all can prophesy. Everybody can prophesy.

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They can. Everybody can prophesy. We're just not all going to do it in the same service.

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But everybody can do it. That's not the point of whether everybody can or not.

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The point is, we've got all these different people saying, God is saying this,

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and God is saying that, and I believe God showed me this, and God showed me that.

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And Paul, by the Holy Spirit, very specifically limited the number on that.

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So that's why in a church setting, we don't let that happen.

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Now, when you're in a class training setting, I've seen it happen five, six, seven times,

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and all of them were God. Because again, you've got a different group there. You've got a group

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there who understands what we're doing. We're learning. We're growing. It's safe. We're all

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saved. We all understand the gifts of the Spirit. That's why Jim always teaches

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before he does these things to try to get everybody on the same page.

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So when God starts training and working and dealing with people, it flows.

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Everybody's going the same direction. In a church service, we don't know that's happening,

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because you have visitors dropping in at any time, and they should be allowed to drop in

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without leaving, going, wow, that was really weird. I'm just being honest.

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And I'll tell you one other reason why in my mind it's not good to have,

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why the Holy Spirit would have said that. Why would He limit them?

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Because if it becomes too numerous, we tend to get nonchalant about it.

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Technically speaking from Scripture, if someone is giving some form of prophetic message,

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you are speaking for God. That is a big deal. If you're actually speaking for God,

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if God is actually speaking to me through you, this is huge.

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If you put it in context of who really is God, and now he's taking time to speak

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through this person. Do you know how you know when it's become too nonchalant?

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You can't remember next week what he said last week.

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Oh, I had three prophecies over me last week. What were they? Oh, something about,

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yeah, give me a minute. Give me a minute. That's not, that's bad.

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We have diminished something that's very holy down to Kim and I are just talking. Well,

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what did she say? Well, I don't know. Give me a minute. It was two days ago,

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she said it. I mean, that's a long time. I got to think about this little bit.

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Once God is in that category, we are mishandling the gifts.

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When he speaks, this should be remembered, written down, this should be life changing.

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I mean, show me one place in Scripture where God spoke that wasn't life changing.

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There is none. Every time he spoke to the Israelites, every time he spoke to the church,

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every time it's like, well, God is speaking, wake up, this is big.

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But yet in our charismatic circles, it's like, oh, we just hand out prophecies like candy.

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And it's like, I think 98% of them aren't God.

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So last question. Jim will allow anyone to lay hands on and pray for them we don't.

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Again, remember his call, his gifting. He's a paratroop ministry with a specific emphasis.

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He works in nurturing like a teacher to a student. So it's kind of hard to say,

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here, let me show you how to do math, but I never want you doing math.

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At some point, you can show them two and two is four and then say, now you do it.

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If you want them to learn math, okay? So you've got to keep that in mind. So if he's saying,

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hey, the scripture says this, we can lay on hands and people can be healed, miracles can

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take place, all kinds of stuff can happen, but don't ever do it. Well, he's never going to

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activate you. He's never going to equip you. He's never going to help you.

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So in that setting, everybody again, it's likely a smaller group. It's people who know each other,

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know what they're there for. It's much safer because laying on a hand is a very, very powerful

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thing. It releases a transfer of anointing. Godly anointing is what's supposed to be transferred.

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There's a spiritual energy or power that can transfer when you lay on hands. But guess

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what? There's also demons that can transfer when you lay on hands. It can work both ways.

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So when I don't know the person and we're in a bigger group and there's

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people here that I don't know and they want to come and pray for somebody, I won't let them do it.

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I don't know who they are. They could be a witch, they could be a warlock,

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they could be a satan worshiper, just waiting for an opportunity to go load somebody up with

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some demons. I don't know who they are, waiting for an opportunity to put a curse on somebody.

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It's like, no, I got to know you a little better because I actually believe when you

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lay on hands there will be a supernatural transfer of power. I believe that with all my heart.

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So if I believe that, then we have to handle it that way.

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If I know a person who is living in willful sin, we're all struggling and growing,

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but I mean talking willful sin, I won't let them lay hands on. Because what's in you will jump.

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I've seen it way too many times. Well pastor, I just feel that I want to lay hands on somebody for

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healing. But you crawled out of bed with who knows who on the come to church this morning.

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And it's like, yeah, probably not going to let you do that.

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Oh, I'm not good enough has nothing to do with you being good enough or bad enough.

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It has to do with I'm nervous what you brought with you that is going to jump to that person.

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And it can go both ways. It can go from the person who's being prayed for to the prayer,

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or most of the time it goes from the prayer to the person who's being prayed for.

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But I remember one specific time I didn't have my guard up the way I should have.

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It was a Sunday night service. I knew everybody there.

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Usually Sunday nights a lot of visitors don't show up. So it's our people.

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And we had a prayer line. I went down the prayer line.

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Next morning I woke up with the strongest desire to commit adultery than I've ever had in my life.

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It was just like, I got to go find somebody. This is going to be awesome.

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And it's like, you know, I'm smart enough to know. What? Where is this coming from?

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It took me all day. By evening the Lord said, such and such lady you laid hands on.

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She's carrying this. And it jumped because you didn't have your guard up.

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Kick it out. So I kicked it out. And within about five minutes it's like,

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I can't believe I was actually thinking that way.

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It was just a flop to a different way of thinking.

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So you can't just take somebody who you know. And it's, we're all growing.

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I'm not saying you have to be perfect. But there's people who are in flat out disobedience,

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rebellion to God. They're doing it their way. And they're going to continue doing it their way.

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You can't let them lay hands on somebody because that will transfer.

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And instead of helping the person, you're actually going to load them up with stuff

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they don't need. So I guard that. And also if someone doesn't come to the church regularly,

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I don't know you well enough. I don't know what's going on in your life.

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I don't have to sit down and talk with you and have lunch. I just need two minutes standing by you.

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And I'll know where you're at. And if you don't come often enough,

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all of a sudden you show up and you want to, well, I used to come to church here

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three months ago, Pastor Verne. I was here. I want to pray for it. No, you're not

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nothing's wrong with you. I don't know what you've been into.

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And I consider laying on of hands a holy thing that will absolutely, absolutely produce supernatural

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results because the spiritual power will transfer. I just want to make sure it's the right one.

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So my job is to teach and encourage, make ways possible, grow and watch over and protect and

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and keep an eye on the big thing. And in the smaller class type setting,

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hopefully everybody knows each other. We know what's going on and it's much easier to manage.

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So real briefly, the process here, we want the gifts to operate. Most Spirit-filled churches

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don't let gifts operate in a service. Why? Because it gets out of control. It's weird.

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We want them to operate, but we want you to filter through the people who are

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going to answer for the service. Let me say it that way. And usually those people are in that front

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row. It's either me, my wife, Pastor Igor, Pastor Tanya. Sometimes guest speakers are there with us.

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We're going to answer for it. So if you feel God's giving you something, just come on over,

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get our attention during present worship or what it could be during a message. Just walk on over

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and whisper to Pastor Igor, hey, this is what I'm hearing. This is what I'm feeling. You

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think this is God? And we feel good about it. We'll go with it. You say, well,

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feel good about it. What does that mean? We already know the direction of the service coming in.

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It's rare. Occasionally I'll get up and say, I have no idea where this is supposed to go.

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That's rare. We already have heard and say, this is where it's supposed to go.

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This is how it's supposed to get there. We know what God is trying to establish.

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We're going to measure against that. We're going to measure against what you're

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sharing. Is it scriptural? We're going to measure against, is it just for you or

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is this for the congregation? You heard God. Absolutely. I don't think it's for the

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congregation though, or I don't think it's for this time, or it might be just for you.

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And that's all good. It's all growing. It's all learning. But we want the gifts to operate,

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and that's how we're trying to screen it so it can happen. And yet it doesn't get funny.

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Weird, whatever. I know I let it happen last Sunday. In fact, I asked for it to happen

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last Sunday. I said, we're not done here yet. God's got some things. And I had a few

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people come forward. I said, come to me and tell me what you got. Let's see what you got.

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And that's all good. But on a normal Sunday, we prefer you go around and talk to the people

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over there and screen it through them because, number one, on video, who you've got all kinds

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of people watching the video, all of a sudden somebody comes up and stands here. It looks like

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what? And then whoever's in charge comes and leans over and they're talking. You know what's

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going to go through their mind? Couldn't they have found a better place to talk about where

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they're going off for lunch or whatever they're talking about? It's going to look goofy because

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they're not in the mindset we're in. And it's going to be a distraction to them.

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And then the person in front is trying to follow the spirit and now they got a kind

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of hopefully the band's still going because I've had it happen when it's just talking going on.

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Somebody comes and now we're talking. And everybody's going like, okay. And for two minutes,

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nothing's going on except you're listening real hard trying to hear. What are they saying?

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What are they talking about? It's just a poor way of communication and it can be done better.

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So clear it through the people who are available over there in that front roll.

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And also I'm going to request, and we don't have much of this, thank God. I'm also going

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to request just don't blurt out a prophecy or speaking in tongues interpretation. Don't just

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blurt it out. If you've got something, come tell us. It'll witness with us. Now there's

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times I'll say somebody's got something. Who is it? Well, then now you've got permission to go for

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it. But just all of a sudden blurt it out. Again, it's we have no idea where you're

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going with this. And it can literally take a whole service that was going this way

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and turn it to go that way. And it wasn't God. So then when you try to turn it back,

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you're always going to have those few people who can't feel it in their spirit that, yeah,

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we shouldn't have went that way. We should have stayed this way. You'll always have those

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few who say, oh, why didn't you do what they said? I thought it was a good idea.

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Only buddy who's got any authority here appears to be you, huh?

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And it's like, we don't need the confusion. We don't need the distraction.

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There's just a better way to do it. And that's all we're trying to do.

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But that's the reason most spirit filled churches don't allow the gifts of the spirit to flow.

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So I just wanted to separate. Can you punch something out in half an hour? Okay.

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Message number two is coming up. I just wanted to separate to help us understand,

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because they're the same kind of questions keep coming in. And it's like, well, the

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difference is basically perichurch ministry to church ministry and the focus, the emphasis.

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If you will divide it out into that, it'll make perfect sense to you why Jim operates the way he

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does, why we operate the way we do. And if you have more questions, shoot them in. We'll take